Text:Debate of Imam al-Rida (a) on Monotheism and Justice

This page is about Text of Imam al-Rida's debate on Monotheism. For related article, see Debate of Imam al-Rida (a) on Monotheism.

In the debate of monotheism, Imam al-Rida (a) debates with a person who denies God’s existence. Early in the dialogue, Imam al-Rida (a) presents an argument for the rationality of the belief in God. His atheist interlocutor does not respond to this argument, and instead raises various objections to God’s existence. In his replies to these objections, Imam al-Rida (a) presents two additional arguments for God’s existence as well. According to the narrator of the debate, in the end the interlocutor comes to believe in God.

Text and translation

An atheist, experienced in atheism and unbelief, hurried to attend Imam al-Rida’s session in which was a group of people.	دَخَلَ رَجُلٌ مِنَ الزَّنَادِقَةِ عَلَى الرِّضَا ع وَ عِنْدَهُ جَمَاعَةٌ
The Imam turned to the atheist and asked him:	فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع
“Do you see that if the correct view is your view and it is not your view then are we not equal? All that we have prayed, fasted, given the alms and declared of our convictions will not harm us?”	أَ رَأَيْتَ‏ إِنْ كَانَ الْقَوْلُ قَوْلَكُمْ وَ لَيْسَ‏ هُوَ كَمَا تَقُولُونَ أَ لَسْنَا وَ إِيَّاكُمْ شرع سواه [شَرَعاً سَوَاءً] وَ لَا يَضُرُّنَا مَا صَلَّيْنَا وَ صُمْنَا وَ زَكَّيْنَا وَ أَقْرَرْنَا؟
The atheist kept silence, After that the Imam added, saying: “If the correct view is our viewand it is our viewthen have you not perished and we gained salvation?”	فَسَكَتَ فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع وَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الْقَوْلُ قَوْلَنَا وَ هُوَ قَوْلُنَا وَ كَمَا نَقُولُ أَ لَسْتُمْ قَدْ هَلَكْتُمْ وَ نَجَوْنَا
Question 1: “May Allah have mercy on, let me know how is He (Allah) and where is He?”	قَالَ رَحِمَكَ اللَّهُ فَأَوْجِدْنِي كَيْفَ هُوَ وَ أَيْنَ هُوَ؟
Answer 1: “Surely the opinion you have adopted is mistaken. He (Allah) determined the ‘where’ and he was when there was nowhere; He fashioned the ‘how’ and He was when there was no ‘how’. So He is not known through ‘howness’ or ‘whereness’ or through any form of sense perception; nor can He be gauged by anything.”	قَالَ وَيْلَكَ إِنَّ الَّذِي ذَهَبْتَ إِلَيْهِ غَلَطٌ وَ هُوَ أَيَّنَ الْأَيْنَ‏ وَ كَانَ وَ لَا أَيْنَ وَ كَيَّفَ‏ الْكَيْفَ وَ كَانَ‏ وَ لَا كَيْفَ فَلَا يُعْرَفُ بِكَيْفُوفِيَّةٍ وَ لَا بِأَيْنُونِيَّةٍ وَ لَا يُدْرَكُ بِحَاسَّةٍ وَ لَا يُقَاسُ بِشَيْ‏ءٍ
Question 2: “So then He is nothing if He cannot be perceived by any of the senses?”	قَالَ الرَّجُلُ فَإِذاً إِنَّهُ‏ لَا شَيْ‏ءَ إِذَا لَمْ يُدْرَكْ بِحَاسَّةٍ مِنَ الْحَوَاسِّ
Answer 2: “Woe unto you! When your senses fail to perceive Him, you deny His lordship. But when our senses fail to perceive Him, we know for certain that He is our Lord and that He is something different from other things.”	فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع وَيْلَكَ لَمَّا عَجَزَتْ حَوَاسُّكَ عَنْ إِدْرَاكِهِ أَنْكَرْتَ رُبُوبِيَّتَهُ وَ نَحْنُ إِذَا عَجَزَتْ‏ حَوَاسُّنَا عَنْ إِدْرَاكِهِ أَيْقَنَّا أَنَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَ أَنَّهُ شَيْ‏ءٌ بِخِلَافِ‏ الْأَشْيَاءِ
Question 3: “Tell me, when He was?”	قَالَ الرَّجُلُ فَأَخْبِرْنِي مَتَى كَانَ
Answer 3: “Tell me when He was not, and then I will tell you when He was.”	قَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع أَخْبِرْنِي مَتَى لَمْ يَكُنْ فَأُخْبِرَكَ مَتَى كَانَ
Question 4: “Then what is the proof of Him?”	قَالَ الرَّجُلُ فَمَا الدَّلِيلُ عَلَيْهِ
Answer 4: “Surely when I contemplate my body and it is impossible for me to increase or decrease its breadth and height, or to keep unpleasant things away from it or draw benefits to it, then I know that this structure has a maker and I acknowledge Him even though that which I had seen of the rotation of the celestial sphere through His power, the producing of clouds; the turning about of the winds; the procession of the sun, the moon and the stars; and others of his wondrous and perfectly created signs, had already made me know that (all) this has a Determiner and Producer.”	قَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ إِنِّي لَمَّا نَظَرْتُ إِلَى جَسَدِي فَلَمْ يُمْكِنِّي‏ زِيَادَةٌ وَ لَا نُقْصَانٌ فِي الْعَرْضِ وَ طَوْلٍ وَ دَفْعُ الْمَكَارِهِ عَنْهُ وَ جَرُّ الْمَنْفَعَةِ إِلَيْهِ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ لِهَذَا الْبُنْيَانِ بَانِياً فَأَقْرَرْتُ بِهِ مَعَ مَا أَرَى مِنْ دَوَرَانِ الْفَلَكِ بِقُدْرَتِهِ وَ إِنْشَاءِ السَّحَابِ وَ تَصْرِيفِ الرِّيَاحِ وَ مَجْرَى الشَّمْسِ وَ الْقَمَرِ وَ النُّجُومِ وَ غَيْرِ ذَلِكَ مِنَ الْآيَاتِ الْعَجِيبَاتِ الْمُتْقَنَاتِ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ لِهَذَا مُقَدِّراً وَ مُنْشِئاً
Then why is this God hidden from us?	قَالَ الرَّجُلُ فَلِمَ احْتَجَبَ
Imam (a) said: that hiddenness is on the people for many of their sins, But God has nothing hidden from Him during the watches of the night and day.	فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ إِنَّ الْحِجَابَ عَلَى الْخَلْقِ لِكَثْرَةِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ فَأَمَّا هُوَ فَلَا يَخْفَى عَلَيْهِ خَافِيَةٌ فِي آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ وَ النَّهَارِ
Question 5: “Then why does the sense of sight not perceive Him?”	قَالَ فَلِمَ لَا يُدْرِكُهُ حَاسَّةُ الْأَبْصَارِ؟
Answer 5: “Because of the difference between Him and His creatures, who are perceived by the vision of the eyes, whether their own or others. Then He is greater than that sight should perceive Him, imagination encompass Him, or the power of reason delineate Him.”	قَالَ لِلْفَرْقِ بَيْنَهُ وَ بَيْنَ خَلْقِهِ الَّذِينَ تُدْرِكُهُمْ حَاسَّةُ الْأَبْصَارِ مِنْهُمْ وَ مِنْ غَيْرِهِمْ ثُمَّ هُوَ أَجَلُّ مِنْ أَنْ يُدْرِكَهُ بَصَرٌ أَوْ يُحِيطَهُ وَهْمٌ أَوْ يَضْبِطَهُ عَقْلٌ
Question 6: “Then define His limits for me.”	قَالَ فَحُدَّهُ لِي
Answer 6: “He has no limits.”	قَالَ لَا حَدَّ لَهُ
Question 7: “Why?”	قَالَ وَ لِمَ
Answer 7: “Because every limited thing ends at a limit. If limitation is possible, then increase is possible. If increase is possible, then decrease is possible. So He is unlimited. He neither increases nor decreases. Nor is He capable of being divided or imagined.”	قَالَ لِأَنَّ كُلَّ مَحْدُودٍ مُتَنَاهٍ إِلَى حَدٍّ وَ إِذَا احْتَمَلَ التَّحْدِيدَ احْتَمَلَ الزِّيَادَةَ وَ إِذَا احْتَمَلَ الزِّيَادَةَ احْتَمَلَ النُّقْصَانَ فَهُوَ غَيْرُ مَحْدُودٍ وَ لَا مُتَزَائِدٍ وَ لَا مُتَنَاقِصٍ وَ لَا مُتَجَزِّئٍ وَ لَا مُتَوَهَّمٍ
Question 8: “Then tell me about your saying that He is Subtle, Hearing, Seeing, Knowing, and Wise. Can He be the Hearing without ears, the Seeing without eyes, the Subtle without working with the hands and the Wise without workmanship (san‘a)?”	قَالَ الرَّجُلُ فَأَخْبِرْنِي عَنْ قَوْلِكُمْ إِنَّهُ لَطِيفٌ وَ سَمِيعٌ وَ حَكِيمٌ وَ بَصِيرٌ وَ عَلِيمٌ أَ يَكُونُ السَّمِيعُ‏ إِلَّا بِأُذُنٍ وَ الْبَصِيرُ إِلَّا بِالْعَيْنِ وَ اللَّطِيفُ‏ إِلَّا بِالْعَمَلِ بِالْيَدَيْنِ وَ الْحَكِيمُ إِلَّا بِالصَّنْعَةِ؟
Answer 8: “Surely a person among us is subtle in accordance with (his) skill in workmanship. Have you not seen the man who undertakes a task and is subtle in his handling of it, so that it is said: ‘How subtle is so and so!’ Then how should it not be said of the Majestic Creator that He is subtle, when He creates a subtle and majestic creation, places in its living creatures their souls, creates every kind different in form from its own kind, and none resembles another? Each possesses in the composition of its form a subtlety from the Subtle and Aware Creator.	فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع إِنَّ اللَّطِيفَ مِنَّا عَلَى حَدِّ اتِّخَاذِ الصَّنْعَةِ أَ وَ مَا رَأَيْتَ الرَّجُلَ يَتَّخِذُ شَيْئاً يَلْطُفُ‏ فِي اتِّخَاذِهِ فَيُقَالُ مَا أَلْطَفَ فُلَاناً فَكَيْفَ لَا يُقَالُ لِلْخَالِقِ الْجَلِيلِ لَطِيفٌ إِذْ خَلَقَ خَلْقاً لَطِيفاً وَ جَلِيلًا وَ رَكَّبَ فِي الْحَيَوَانِ مِنْهُ أَرْوَاحَهَا وَ خَلَقَ كُلَّ جِنْسٍ مُتَبَايِناً مِنْ جِنْسِهِ فِي الصُّورَةِ لَا يُشْبِهُ بَعْضُهُ بَعْضاً فَكُلٌّ لَهُ لُطْفٌ‏ مِنَ الْخَالِقِ اللَّطِيفِ الْخَبِيرِ فِي تَرْكِيبِ صُورَتِهِ ثُمَّ نَظَرْنَا إِلَى‏
“Then we look upon the trees and their bearing of delicate things, whether edible or inedible, and we said at that: ‘Surely our Creator is Subtle, (but) not like the subtlety of His creatures in their workmanship.’ And we said: ‘Surely He is Hearing, for not hidden from Him are the sounds of His creatures between the Throne and the earth, from a mote to what is larger than it, and in the land and the sea. And their words are not confused by Him.’ At that we said: ‘Surely He is Hearing, but not through ears.’	ثُمَّ نَظَرْنَا إِلَى‏ الْأَشْجَارِ وَ حَمْلِهَا أَطَائِبَهَا الْمَأْكُولَةَ فَقُلْنَا عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ إِنَّ خَالِقَنَا لَطِيفٌ لَا كَلُطْفِ خَلْقِهِ فِي صَنْعَتِهِمْ وَ قُلْنَا إِنَّهُ سَمِيعٌ لَا يَخْفَى عَلَيْهِ أَصْوَاتُ خَلْقِهِ مَا بَيْنَ الْعَرْشِ إِلَى الثَّرَى مِنَ الذَّرَّةِ إِلَى أَكْبَرَ مِنْهَا فِي بَرِّهَا وَ بَحْرِهَا وَ لَا يَشْتَبِهُ عَلَيْهِ لُغَاتُهَا فَقُلْنَا عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ إِنَّهُ سَمِيعٌ لَا بِأُذُنٍ
“Then we said: ‘Surely He is Seeing, but not through eyes, for He sees the trace of a black speck on a dark night on a black stone. He sees the tracks of an ant on a pitch-black night. He sees what is harmful for it and what beneficial, and the result of its cohabitation, and its young and descendants.’ And at that we said: ‘Surely He is Seeing, but not like the sight of His creatures.’”	وَ قُلْنَا إِنَّهُ بَصِيرٌ لَا بِبَصَرٍ لِأَنَّهُ يَرَى أَثَرَ الذَّرَّةِ السَّحْمَاءِ فِي اللَّيْلَةِ الظَّلْمَاءِ عَلَى الصَّخْرَةِ السَّوْدَاءِ وَ يَرَى دَبِيبَ النَّمْلِ‏ فِي اللَّيْلَةِ الدُّجُنَّةِ وَ يَرَى مَضَارَّهَا وَ مَنَافِعَهَا وَ أَثَرَ سِفَادِهَا وَ فِرَاخَهَا وَ نَسْلَهَا فَقُلْنَا عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ إِنَّهُ بَصِيرٌ لَا كَبَصَرِ خَلْقِهِ قَالَ فَمَا بَرِحَ‏ حَتَّى أَسْلَمَ وَ فِيهِ كَلَامٌ غَيْرُ هَذَا.